Best workout surface in Denver Area - Martial Arts - Judo - Jujutsu - Jujitsu - Karate - Aikido - Spring Floor - Floating Floor - gymnastics

Here are links to the documents, let me know if I can answer questions after reviewing the links and info on this page!

- Foam suppliers that I know: ULINE Packaging Materials: http://www.uline.com/Product/Detail/S-14586/Foam/48-x-96-x-3-Plank-Foam : Looks like you can cut 3"x3"x3" blocks from 48x96x3" ($134 per sheet) sheets for about $0.26 each block plus shipping... cut it with a sharp kitchen knife! ( Many have used 2" thick foam and cut it 3x3 or 4x4... All seem very happy!!! http://www.uline.com/Product/Detail/S-12856/Foam/48-x-96-x-2-Plank-Foam?model=S-12856 for the 2 inch thick material... (2 per package $155) about $0.15 each block plus shipping. You can cut 512 3x3" blocks from a 48x96" sheet... Enough for 18.96 - 4x8' sheets or 606 sf... not counting edge blocks

Wisconsin Foam Packaging, Tim Lang , contact Tim@wifoam.com, for current quote. You can call Tim Lang at: Tim Lang, Account Manager, Wisconsin Foam Products, Inc., Cell Phone (608) 444-2362, Home Office Fax (920) 766-6409.

Send photos when you get done and I'll add your story to the reference page below!!!

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The info below is a mish mash of notes I took when building and maintaining the floor. The cleaned up stuff is in the info above, just send me an e-mail request and I'll send you to the page and follow up with you to see how your floor worked out!!!

Jim,

I just got the last of all my material the yesterday!

So here is what I have found out with lots of opinion. I do Mixed Martial Arts with a lot of Gi Judo thrown in. So we wrestle, throw, and grapple on the ground (no gi and gi) and stand up to kick box. So I wanted a lot from a floor. cushion, stiff, non abrasive but not slippery when wet!

I did a lot of experimenting with a bowling ball then a person with video tapping of each experiment.

1. Cross link ... are very bad they have tons of rebound! Very unsafe bad product!

2. Ensolite (i.e. wrestling mats) are great shock absorbers-with independent data to back it up from other sources as to its shock absorbing properties. But we all know about the toe and sticking problem they have. But the Zebra tatamis preformed exactly the same with their chipped rebounded foam as far as they energy absorbing properties.

3. The ethafoam blocks offer a small amount of slower rebound then the cross link.

4. There was no difference between 2" thick 3x3 blocks under 7/16 OSB and 3" thick 3x3 blocks. 1" bottomed out. (I have a ceiling concern and wanted to keep the floor as low as possible is why I tried the 2" blocks)

5. The greatest "catch" from a floor-that is compression and slow rebound came from the OSB itself.

I think you told me that-so I am going with the 21 block configuration with 2" thick foam blocks 2 layers of OSB and Tatamis.

6. Got the foam from Northern Indian Packaging Company. 48"x108" 2" thick foam from $48 bucks a sheet. I got 2 sheets. and the shipping to Illinois where I am was $91 so about $.01 for the foam and $.01 cent for shipping each block-Cheap!. The foam cuts very easy with a very sharp knife. I plan on using my band saw to cut the blocks. WI foam wanted $.30 or so cents a piece for the 3 inch and I was told the 2 inch was about the same.

7. Got my tatamis from the USJA Junior Nationals yesterday for $95 each no tax no shipping (I picked them up) I was surprised how much the mats were scrapped up. (But I also was the last guy there and I am sure that everyone else got the pick of the bunch and I was left with the worst ones. A lot of tape scratches is my guess) But they were far from perfect. But $40 bucks cheaper used and no shipping and no tax.

I will send you some pictures and more info as I build the floor over the next month or so. You can use any of my information for your page. Or if you would like I could as a page to my web site. www.johngraybeal.com

Thanks a million,

John

(Let me know if you need to contact John and I'll forward his e-mail!)

Jim,

I never did thank you for all of the information you sent me about your judo floor. We built it earlier this year and it turned out great.

We have a large floor, approximately 24� x 42�. We used Wisconsin foam for our ethafoam, going with the 3x3x4 inch blocks and gluing 33 blocks long side up on a 4x8 sheet of 7/16 osb plywood. Instead of using butcher paper for the template for the glue, I cut the holes in a sheet of plywood in the 33 block pattern, then used it to mark each sheet using a heavy marking pencil. The sheets of plywood were light enough for one person to do all of the marking by himself and it resulted in every sheet having the same pattern. No problem with remembering to flip the butcher paper over.

We used the contact cement as recommended and went through 3 gallons gluing the approximately 1050 blocks to the 32 sheets of plywood.

We rotated the top sheets of plywood 90 degrees to the bottom layer and secured them with the sheetrock screws.

We covered the floor with Swain flexible mats which come in 6 foot widths and 42 foot lengths. To fit across the width of the room and secure it, one mat was cut so the map was fitted tightly between the walls, then regular molding was secured to the walls pinning the mat to the sub-floor. The ends of the mat were secured with 1 x 4 molding that was laid on the very edge of the mat and screwed through the sub-floor, onto a board that had been ripped to 4� to fit under the sub-floor in the space created by the foam blocks. The result is a rigid edge that does not give at all when walking on and off of the mat. Absolutely no problems with the mat moving at all. The seams between the 3 mats are taped with tape supplied by Swain and it lasts about 3 weeks to a month before it needs to be replaced, which takes about 15-20 minutes.

We all love the floor and it makes falling easy and comfortable. Total cost for the complete floor was approximately $5,500. 4,500 for the mats and 1,000 for the sub-floor. Not to bad for a great floor with over 1000 sq feet of surface area. It took four of us approximately 10 hours to do everything, from taking up the old mats to securing the molding. We started and finished on one long Saturday.

A couple of observations. We do a variety of martial arts at our school, ranging from Han Mu Do, a style very similar to Hapkido or KuK Sool Won to Brazilian jujitsu. Han Mu Do has many throws similar to judo but also has the same variety of kicks as Tae Kwon Do. To provide for a good base for the kicks, I believe you need a somewhat firm floor. That is why we went with the 33 block lay out and secured the top layer of plywood to the first layer with the screws. I think going with the 27 block layout or letting the top layer of wood float on the first would make the floor to soft and spongy for kicks. As it is, there is just enough give to the floor while kicking to require a little more attention to balance, which is a good thing.

Thanks again. Please feel free to have anyone contact me it they need any information on our floor. Bill H

(Let me know if you need to contact William and I'll forward his e-mail!)

INFO ON GLUING FOAM FROM RANDY C

Subject: Denver Dojo Floating Floor - Information Packet!

From: "Randy C" <>

To: <carmer@judocalendar.com>

Hi Jim,

I noticed your question on your website: �If anyone can find out what they use in the ethafoam factory to bond the ethafoam layers let me know!!!�.

The industry standard method of joining pieces of PolyEthylene foam is heat bonding. There are basically three types of PE foam; molded into shapes, single-layer plank and laminated plank. At the foam factories that make laminated planks, large sheets are laminated in a large machine that melts and then joins the surfaces of the foam so that they are permanently bonded. Smaller pieces of PE foam can be bonded by using a heavy duty hand-held �blow dryer� heat gun. A third option is to use a hot plate with non-stick surface but these are not as easy to use and find as the heat guns. The key to using the heat guns is to focus the heated air and quickly join the pieces. A little practice will show you what I am talking about. On one hand, you do not want to create a puddle of melted foam and on the other hand, you do not want a weak bond. The bond should be at least as strong as the parent material.

As for reinforced vinyl mat covers, I found that the in general, the best sources are commercial truck tarp shops. Most good ones can make a mat cover as large as you need, and offer a variety of colors. I have not found the source for the rice straw tatami textured vinyl, though. Please let me know if you have a source, preferably in the USA. Thanks.

Hope this helps you. I would like to visit your dojo if I ever find myself in your area.

(Let me know if you need to contact Randy and I'll forward his e-mail!)

RonA - Hi James sorry to bother you again about this dam sub floor but I have done some tests and I am leaning towards 4x4x2 (2 being the height ) cubes . I fear that 4 inches may make the mat too springy . and be moving while others are training near by , plus it have the cost . Where did you find the height of 4 inches and what are your thoughts of 2 inches ?. Since you may or may not know you are quickly becoming the judo sub floor exasperate of north America

Hi Jim,

After discussing by mail with Hatashita who�s built dojo subfloor I have decided to go with a 33 blocs configuration. In his case he always use 2 layers of 3/8� plywood but it cost a lot so I decided to go with 7/16� OSB. As John Graybeal I have a ceiling problem so I used 2 inches thick foam.

I made lot and lot of calls to finally found 48� X 108� X 2� with 2.2 pcf polyethylene foam sheets here in Montr�al, Qu�bec, Canada. We had used bench saw to cut the sheets in 3� X 48� X 2� and used a cut-off saw to get 3� X 3� X 2� blocs. It was very funny to catch blocs pitching by the cut-off saw, it come out very fast so it�s good to practice reflex. We finished with 2300 blocs and have used around 2000 of them under a first layer of 59 OSB sheets.

I know that the type of glue is always a problem, but in our case we used a water based cement contact �LePage� who works great. With that cement you will need to wait between 2 and 3 minutes before gluing blocs on wood but the blocs will not fall down when you will return the sheet.

The size of my Dojo is 14.3 X 12.8 meters (47 X 42 feet) and here is cost and material to build the subfloor:

OSB : 111 sheets at 6.37$ = 751.66 + tx for a total of 848.43$

Polyethylene : 4 sheets at 75$ = 300$ + tx for a total of 338.63$ = around 15 cent per bloc.

Glue : 1 gallon at 50.64$ + tx for a total of 57.71$

2� x 4�, screws, paintbrushes, duck-tape, fuel to carry material, lunch for everybody, etc. : 225.49 + tx for a total of 256.35$

I didn�t find used mats so I had to buy 18 new tatamis : 18 X 3� X 6� mats at 165$ = 2 970$ + tx for a total of 3 384,32$

Our subfloor cost is : 1501.12$ (0.76$ / sq. ft.)

Our 18 new tatamis : 3 384,32$

Total of the renovation : 4 885.44$

After a complete week of training on the new floor, every judokas have the same comment, wow it�s so nice to fall that we now want to replace uchi-komi by nage-komi. I really want to thanks a lot for your help and let you know that everyone appreciate the comfort of our new dojo.

If you ever come in Montr�al, let me know and it will be a pleasure meet you.

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Marc Cantin

Sensei & Directeur Technique

Club de judo Judosph�re Deux-Montagnes

judosphere@videotron.ca

P
Do you really have to print this email. Think about the environment !
Devez-vous vraiment imprimer ce courriel? Pensez � l�environnement !

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From: James Carmer-Judocalendar [mailto:carmer@judocalendar.com]
Sent: 16 f�vrier 2008 18:41
To: Judosph�re
Subject: Denver Dojo Floating Floor - Information Packet!

Marc,

Thanks for the note!
Attached you will find the info!

Let me know if I can do any more!
Stop in and see our floor in Denver if you get a chance!

Drop me a line and let me know how your floor is going!
I will keep records on the web for others information!

Support our efforts: http://www.judocalendar.com/denverdojo/SupportUsJDenverDojo.html

Thanks,
Jim

PS I received following this week !

From: Gary Heartsfield <gheartsfield@mac.com>

To: carmer@judocalendar.com

Subject: Denver Dojo Floating Floor - Information Packet!

Dear Sir

Browsing on the net and mats, I came across your site.

I worked for Spieth Anderson gymnastics for 20 plus years and now with Dollamur mats for the past 11 years. ... ( AMF gymnastics 5 years before Spieth ) I Worked on the development of the very first Spring floor introduced in 1978.( with AMF) ( Spring floor was required for the 79 world gymnastics meet in Fort Worth Texas. ) After reading the information about the spring or foam floors I wanted to add some comments that I feel your readers will appreciate. Always place a full layer of poly sheeting on the concrete or whatever base floor the system is going over. Many many times I have seen the moisture be pulled from the base floor into the wood, causing it to warp. Maybe it will only mildew, but it will affect the floor. For the small price of the plastic it is good insurance. I always preferred the foam block floor over the steel springs, but opinions vary. During the early days of spring floors most of the two layers of wood was screwed together ( some still are ) Since the martial arts do not have the shear impacts as tumbling and gymnastics do screwing might hold up. However the wood layers will grow and shrink based on the humidity, and all the stresses . The big advantage to the velcro attachment system is that it allows the panels to grow and contract as needed preventing the buckling of the system. All spring or foam floors will try to move in some direction, depending on the skills and class workouts. You can put a rigid stop at the board level in some cases. I have had great results with the both foam and steel floors by using liquid nails or the like and glueing the blocks or the spring bases around the perimeter of the floor ( yes you must cut away the plastic film ) . These floors creep across the floor, and by capturing the bases with the glue the floor will not creep. My final advice is to use Baltic Birch plywood if at all possible ( 9 mm (3/8) two layers. You might pay a little more, but you will never never have to replace a panel ( use the velcro as Spieth Anderson, it will hold it all together ) It will be the most level surface of all. Again enjoyed the site, nice to know people or sharing information.

Gary Heartsfield

James Carmer
Denver Dojo Inc.
719 Mariposa St. Ste 1
Denver CO 80204
PH 303 623 3362
Cell 303 330 9014

www.denverdojo.com
mailto:carmer@judocalendar.com

When we set out to design our floor system we brought many years of competition and workout surface experience to the problem. A mat system placed on an arena concrete or wood floor will only compress under load a percentage of the foam or mat material thickness. This system works adequately for tournaments, however, injuries are often attributed to impact with the mat. I believe that the USA Judo "National" events require an "underlayment" under the tatami... In Indianapolis (2003) we used a fiber board panel material and in Virginia Beach (2005) they used carpet pad... In Houston 2006 lightweight carpet pad without lateral restraint and the mats moved quite a bit laterally...

In the Dojo we need a floor system that will deflect under the force of impact of a falling body. It needs to deflect more than just a percentage of the thickness of the mat surface material. So a floor system that will help absorb some of the energy of the fall is required. This will result in much safer, injury free, Dojo. The floor has to have some "spring" in it to give the impact more cushioning effect, without the bounce - bounce of a true un-dampened spring floor. We need a spring with dampening. This means longer careers in both our competition and recreational workout lives.

Many mat materials and many floor systems are available. Some of the solutions we have seen are:

Description	Pros	Cons
Wrestling mats	None	Urethane mats deform too slowly to provide the "shock absorption" properties necessary in Judo and Jujutsu where bodies are hitting the floor at times with force. Have to admit, I grew up and played JUDO on wrestling mats from the 70's I understand that the newer super light mats are a different breed... I have no information, however, on these mats so check for yourself!
Urethane mats with canvas cover	None	Canvas is tough on skin, lots of abrasions. Again the urethane matting as a rule is not springy enough for protecting participants in the throwing arts. Old urethane tech again! Take this with a grain of salt and check for yourself!
Cotton mats with canvas cover	None	Seen in gyms for years, old tech...
Polyethylene foam with canvas cover.	Good properties for taking falls, light weight for moving around!	Canvas or plasticized canvas is abrasive. "Mat burn" is the norm on feet and faces!
Spring floor system using tires as springs.	Great floor for Judo Jujitsu Aikido, etc	The tires are fairly easy to obtain, but difficult to get rid of... Hard to get a lot of similar "spring" tires so floors get soft/hard spots, lots of material cost in tires!...
Air floor or Puzzle mats, or Interlocking	Played on this in Austria at 2004 World masters, Great Mat... Light weight, easy to install, lock together On a floating floor surface should be fine!	Cost $? Durability - don't know?
Tatami or equivalent	Excellent surface for Judo, Jujitsu, Aikido, Karate, etc Excellent shock absorption...	Costly $85 to $120 per 1 meter by 2 meter tatami (21.53 sq. ft. per tatami), Heavy about 11.3 kilograms per square meter. (2.3 lbs/sf.)

Floor system layout showing the lower layer of plywood with foam blocks glued to plywood shown in blue and yellow. And then the top layer of plywood held in place with velcro shown in black line. Velcro strips 4 inch wide are used to keep the two layers of plywood from shifting around. Hook on one side and Loop on the other, stapled to the plywood... Removed the sketches on the web page. Send me a email and I'll send you the "How to" and spring layout drawing! E-mail request is just so I can track who is doing what with the spring floor system.

We did a search of literature and suppliers on the internet and found some valuable information on floor systems Dojo Maintenance Column . More links follow below. We decided to follow some existing designs used in gymnastic floors and got some quotes for "springs" and plywood and velcro for the floor system.

The basic floor is as used in a gymnastics tumbling floor, however, the mat surface is not polyethylene foam with a carpet cover. We are using the Zebra Mats tatami floor mats. Similar to the United Athletic Floor Systems layout.

We decided to use foam blocks and not steel springs to support and spring the floor. The foam blocks exhibit a dampened spring, "not so bouncy " but still absorb the large deflections required. An example of a gymnastics floor with foam springs is at Tiffin Athletic Mats site.

Mats, Purchased 106 tatami from Zebra Mats after a local National level judo tournament in our area. Reduced cost $$ was great, shipping was paid by the tournament as mat rental fee. We had to move the mats from the tournament site after the event... est. cost for tatami for 46' x 46' surface $9800 plus shipping. Shipping can be 15% the cost of the tatami... ( I've played on the TATAMI from StaPro in Austria, and I would not hesitate to use this style mat in the Dojo! Interlocking mats look to be same thing?

Foam springs, I opted for 2.2 pcf (pounds per cubic foot density) polyethylene foam made into 4"x4"x4" ( I think 3x3x3 would work well too!) blocks and glued to the plywood in the scheme from Dojo Maintenance Column in this Layout diagram. We found that the layout when rotated 180 degrees and placed side by side with the un-rotated layout makes a nice uniform spring system. There are 33 foam blocks per bottom layer of plywood sheets (68 x 33 = 2244 foam blocks). Bought foam blocks from (Send me an email and I'll send supplier info to you!) The est. for 2200 blocks was $.34 each. = $750 plus shipping est. at $150 = $900... 3"x3"x3" blocks are 0nly $0.20 each!

note: We ended up using 4x4x3 springs were at a cost of $0.2626/each for the 2200 blocks (oriented 4" high)

I have drawings of the block layout if you need, just droop me an e-mail... I would use contact cement if I had to do it all over again... It adheres great to the polyethylene and is inexpensive... If anyone can find out what they use in the ethafoam factory to bond the ethafoam layers let me know!!!

Plywood, I needed two layers placed with non over lapping joints between sheets. Approx 136 sheets ( 68 per layer) of 1/2" plywood or 7/16" OSB sheet. Either one is fine. In 2005 the local cost on the OSB is $16 per sheet plus tax... est. $2350 for the sheeting. Note in November of 2006 it's down to $6 a sheet at Denver Home Depots!

We ended up using 7/16" OSB at $12.50 each. Paul Nogaki used 1/2 plywood and Paul is quoted as saying " Jim, I kinda like your floor, it's slightly less stiff !" My floor stiffened up a bit when we screwed the top layer to the bottom layer of sheeting!

Velcro, you need to buy both the hook and the loop and plan on stapling the bottom layer to the sheeting. Not many glues work on the velcro material and I did not try the pre glued, I assumed it would not work well on OSB or plywood. I figure you need 2 rolls (25 yards per roll) of each hook and loop. This should leave you 5 to 10 yards extra of each hook and loop... $40 x 4 = $160 plus shipping. Fenner Supply pays shipping on orders over $100 I ended up retaining the mats with 2x4 around the perimeter after screwing the sheeting layers together! Used NO VELCRO!

I have since abandoned the Velcro and added a 2 inch nylon or poly web and 2x4 wood retainers (see photos) The velcro did not keep the wood sheets from shifting. Paul Nogaki says that lots of screws in the plywood fastening the layers of plywood together will keep the sheets from separating and then the velcro will work well.... I did not do this and went to the webbing straps and 2x4s... saw it in a catalog... Webbing is working well... I have since abandoned the use of velcro and just screwed 2x4 on the edges to retain tatami!

I've talked to paul Nogaki since we have both built this mat system and I think screwing the OSB and using velcro on the perimeter mats would be a preferred system to the webbing that I used... I would still use te thinner OSB - We really like the mat characteristics for soft/hard... JC 2006-04-25

I ended up retaining the mats with 2x4 around the perimeter after screwing the sheeting layers together! Used NO VELCRO! Paul used vercrl and says it works well!

Plywood or OSB $ 2,350 ($1.11 /sf) can be low as $7 a sheet big save here! MUCH LESS NOW!

http://www.nipac-ssp.com/ Northern Indiana Packaging has 2.2 pcf ethafoam sheeting 50"x108"x1.5" or 2"thick.

Description	Pros	Cons
Spring floor system using tires under plywood as springs. Another 2007 tire floor - http://www.kattaekwondo.com/floor.htm	Great floor for Judo Jujitsu Aikido, etc cost?	The tires are fairly easy to obtain, but difficult to get rid of... Hard to get a lot of similar "spring" tires so floors get soft spots...
Resilient flooring , urethane or particle boards	Gives some added spring	Minimal deflection, high cost $$?
Layer of polyethylene foam under mats or layer of polyurethane foam Swain Sports says works well	Added deflection to floor system, more give!	Support to the mat surface is soft and accelerates break down in surface mats...
Spring floor system using steel springs or polyethylene foam springs under plywood	Great shock absorption, portable	?